S2 E8 | Whole, Even Here

Kim: Welcome everyone. We are so glad to spend some time with you today. My name is Kim and I’m here around the table with my two friends.

Brenda: Brenda?

Cindy: And Cindy?

Brenda: We are nearing the end of season two, which has been all about becoming more whole. We hope something in this season has helped you on your own journey of growing a little closer to Jesus. Today we’re talking about what it looks like to live in that space where God has already done something incredible in us, but he’s clearly not finished yet.

Kim: Yet.

Cindy: Today’s episode is called Whole, Even Here. What does it look like to live from what Christ has done while he’s still restoring what is broken? And to check out our episode notes, resources, our 10 Biblical Truth Companion Guide, or even our worship playlist, visit lifereclaim.net.

Kim: Okay, before we dive into the conversation, let’s do a quick check in. Last episode we talked about something you lose often. This week I’m so curious about the opposite. Was there ever an item you wished you could lose, but somehow it just kept hanging around?

Cindy: That’s easy.

Brenda: Weight.

Cindy: It just keeps hanging around.

Kim: That is so funny. I never thought of that. No. I did not think of it.

Brenda: That

Cindy: What?

Brenda: but that is fantastic. I actually went to my phone. Like, can we just go back when we had no cell phone?

Cindy: Ha ha ha.

Kim: I

Brenda: Wish it would just, you know Yeah, stop hanging around. But I think it’s here to stay.

Cindy: Mm-hmm.

Kim: That is probably true. I don’t know if this happened to any of you. I had braces more than once. So I had braces when I was, you know, a teen and then braces again after I had one of my children. Prenatal stuff, my it just moved my teeth. So my retainer was the th

Cindy: Mm-hmm.

Kim: I could just lose that thing. And of course then you always do and pay for a new one and Anybody who’s ever wrapped a retainer in a napkin knows what I’m talking about.

Brenda: Into the lunch brown lunch bag and into the dumpster it went. Yes.

Cindy: Ha ha ha.

Kim: And then kids used to come up to me at school and just in tears, I lost my retainer. And I’m like, not digging that garbage with you.

Cindy: Hmm.

Kim: Sorry, kid. Well, apparently some things are much harder to get rid of than others. And maybe that’s not a terrible way to get us into today’s conversation. Because there are things in our lives we would really like to leave behind too. Old habits, insecurities, wounds, ways of thinking. Things we thought we’d be over by now. Man, I’ve got a bunch on that list. And yet here they are, still hanging around.

Brenda: Living life from a place of wholeness sounds amazing, but if we’re being honest, most of us don’t live that way all the time. Sometimes we make decisions from places that are still wounded. We react out of fear or insecurity. We see ourselves through something that happened years ago. Or maybe we know what God says is true, but our feelings haven’t quite caught up with it.

Cindy: And sometimes we look around and it seems like everyone else has this wholeness thing figured out. Yeah. They look confident and content, their faith looks strong, their life looks settled. But we’ve spent this whole season talking about becoming whole, and maybe there’s a question we haven’t answered yet. Do

Kim: Yeah.

Cindy: we have to wait until God finishes all of that work before we could actually live whole?

Kim: man. That’s such a good c

Brenda: Question. It is a good question.

Kim: I think I spent my whole life wondering when that was gonna happen for me. Like when will I actually be whole enough for God to use me? Because if that’s the requirement, we might be waiting a very long time. What if wholeness isn’t a finish line? What if we can acknowledge the places that are still broken without allowing those places to define our whole life? I really have struggled with that. And what if because of Jesus we can begin living differently right here, even while God is restoring us? We’ve spent almost an entire season talking about wholeness, but let’s make this really, really practical. When you hear the phrase living from a place of wholeness, what does that actually mean to you?

Brenda: I think it means living from a place of surrender to God. Recognizing that you do live in a fallen world with hearts that can be deceitful Jeremiah seventeen nine. And so we must take up our cross daily, Luke nine thirty three, trust the Lord with all our heart, Proverbs three five, and submit our ways to him, Proverbs three six.

Kim: Man.

Brenda: I think doing each of those pieces connect us straight. To the source and you can find wholeness.

Kim: Wow. That’s so good.

Cindy: And I think that living from a place of wholeness, what I thought of was something that we’ve mentioned before too, where the Holy Spirit in us makes us whole. And so while I might still have scars, while there still can be brokenness, God sees me as whole. And so that’s the place that I live from, not what happened to me, but Where I’m going now.

Kim: Love that. Love the idea of living where I’m going now and what he’s doing.

Brenda: I like that question, piggybacking off of you, Cindy, how would you describe the difference between acknowledging our brokenness and living from our brokenness?

Kim: Mm-hmm.

Brenda: And I think you hit that right there on the head.

Cindy: Well, because the truth is there are some people that are never gonna be whole and it might not be an emotional scar. I mean, I have dear friends that have cancer, epilepsy, you know, and yet it’s through that that they are doing wonderful you know, testimonies of God’s generosity in their life and God working through them. If they didn’t have that brokenness. They wouldn’t reach people the way they do. It’s because of the brokenness. So it doesn’t mean you’re gonna be healed to be whole. You couldn’t be completely whole and still be very Broken.

Brenda: Yeah. it’s funny when I thought of this idea of living from a place of wholeness even though we’re

Kim: For Brun.

Brenda: and or we’re not, I actually thought of Paul. Yeah.

Cindy: How good.

Brenda: Yes, and and I’m that verse, you know, I think it’s seven Romans seven fifteen, you know, why do I do the thing I don’t

Kim: That I don’t want to do.

Brenda: want to do? And he like repeats it again later, like, I hate the evil, but why do I do the evil when I don’t want to. And that is because you are living in a fallen world as a whole being, right, as like a heavenly whole being, because you’re filled with the Holy Spirit. Yeah. And you’re battling that difference. But it’s like it’s almost like he cries out like, I’m living in a from a broken place. But I’m choosing Jesus. Yeah. You know, and that that ability to repent and show everybody else how to cry out to God to like come. Yeah. Follow. Like no matter how broken you are, no matter what you’re doing or want to do or desire to do, like Jesus is still gonna to make Jesus is still going to make you whole.

Kim: Mm-hmm. I that’s so great. I love the idea of that. And there’s a song I’m trying to think of the lyrics and I’m gonna botch them, but it basically is that whole Paul’s journey of why do I do what I hate and then the things that I want to do I seem to not be able to bring myself to do.

Brenda: Well and I think this will lead us in as we move forward in this conversation of identity. Yeah. I it boggles my mind. I mean, here is Paul making this argument, but then the Bible very clearly tells us he is an apostle called by God, sent by Jesus Christ, a chosen instrument in Galatians, a servant of Jesus, set apart, yet still. Recognizing his brokenness.

Kim: Right. So the juxtaposition is they both can exist at the same time. Yes.

Cindy: I don’t know if you guys saw yesterday in the Bible app the guided scripture was a man with he

Kim: Yeah.

Brenda: Yeah.

Cindy: could barely see

Kim: Speak.

Cindy: and then he explains how he had been abused as a child and yet he in his words, it did not keep him from being able to spread the word of God. And I thought, you know, God, I don’t know how to think about that, except God is using that man with that illness on a platform that reaches millions of people.

Kim: Mm-hmm.

Brenda: Well, he’s using his story. Yeah. His testimony. I’m trying to remember what his it was called. What was it called? It was like

Kim: I don’t remember what it was called.

Brenda: Yeah, I can’t remember either. Ministry on Wheels or It had something to do with Yeah,

Kim: Wheels.

Brenda: something to do with wheels.

Kim: Yeah.

Brenda: Maybe part of becoming whole is learning that something can be part of our story without allowing it to become the definition of our story.

Kim: think that’s been a problem in my brain to sort the difference. Yeah.

Brenda: Yes. What changes when our starting place becomes who does God say I am instead of what happened to me? Or why did I do that?

Kim: I think as a child who endured a lot of very unjust things at a very young age, this to me has been a very hard thing to reconcile because who I am is the person who’s had bad things happen to them. Right? In my in my childhood brain, right? and so it has taken lots of great therapists and lots of great studies and the word of God over and over and over and the Holy Spirit divine intervention to really start to sort out who does God say I am compared to the life that I’ve lived and experienced and the things I’ve gone through. And so if I could go back to younger me and switch that brain and tell it this is not who you are.

Cindy: Mm-hmm.

Kim: What would have changed? What different choices would I have made? What things could I have avoided or what things could I have rectified? That is a very intriguing question for me. I don’t have an answer for it. In case you I just think it’s a very intriguing question.

Cindy: I hope you don’t dwell there. I know you don’t. You know, I mean it’s a it’s a thought. But we cannot say what if I had known what I know now? I mean, w I think we all do that.

Kim: Sure.

Cindy: That’s you have to be really careful there.

Kim: I think it’s also I did not pick up victimhood mentality. So a lot of people who have a lot of tragic and hard things happen to them as young people pick up the idea of I I’m a victim, bad things always happen to me, all of those things. And though I jokingly will say I carry the black cloud over me, or I’ll jokingly say, you know, I have bad luck or whatever, most of that is really tongue in cheek because I don’t claim victimhood. I decided early on, you’ve already taken enough power from me. I’m not giving you anymore. So I will not lay down and and give you power to destroy my life or my thoughts or my whatever. I’m gonna keep moving forward. And Lord has met me there. Lord

Cindy: Yeah.

Kim: has taken me through and just really given me some beautiful moments and experiences, which I’m super, super grateful for. But also You know, I don’t want to be a victim.

Cindy: I think sometimes we have this imaginary future version of ourselves.

Kim: Yeah,

Cindy: When I’m more confident when I finally get over this, when my faith is stronger, when I stop struggling with

Kim: That

Cindy: when I’m not so afraid, then I’ll be ready. So

Brenda: Yeah.

Cindy: the question is: have you ever found yourself waiting to become a better version? Of yourself before doing something you felt God might be calling you to do?

Kim: yeah.

Brenda: This podcast

Cindy: I know that’s what I thought to.

Brenda: I think we all had that. Yeah, this sounds like a great idea, but I don’t know if I’m ready for that. Here

Cindy: Mm.

Brenda: we are, because through God’s faithfulness and us trusting him in this process and the relationships and our stories, we said, Let’s do it. We don’t we don’t need to wait to be somebody different.

Kim: Well, I think that kind of goes in there, like what might we miss if we spend our lives waiting to feel ready? Because you could be on your knees, Lord forgive me, Lord forgive me, Lord forgive me, and he’s already forgiven you. But you’re still stuck there because you haven’t forgiven you and you don’t think he can use you or your story or your testimony or the hard things you’ve lived through or the choices that you made that were probably not the best choices or whatever, right? And so you get stuck in that cycle of well, God couldn’t use me, but he’s literally waiting for you to get up, take a step, so he can meet you there, right? If you don’t ever take the step, he can’t meet you there.

Brenda: And we see all throughout the Bible that’s all God does use. Yeah. Our are the broken people. Unexpected. Yeah. Unexpected broken people. Yeah.

Cindy: We had a pastor. I mentioned that we had lived up in Pollock Pines and we had a pastor up there and we had just moved up there and we were out of some pretty severe trauma, just messy season. So we’re we barely have it together. Yeah. And we go to the church and we’re talking to the pastor. He says, I think that you guys should lead a couple’s Bible study. And you’re like No, I think we’re not equipped for that. And he said, and I’ll never forget. How many steps do you have to be in front of somebody to lead them?

Kim: yeah, one. One. That was it. That’s what they told us in teacher school too. So

Cindy: Yeah, that’s stuck with me.

Brenda: Yeah.

Kim: Just one step ahead.

Brenda: Something so little but that’s so deep. Right?

Kim: You know, only need to be one step ahead. Well, you know, there’s tension when we say, This is just who I am, so I never need to change, or, you know, we also don’t want to spend our entire lives thinking I’ll be worthy of living fully once I finally fix myself. That’s a big I think that’s why some people don’t come to Christ, because they’re like, I can’t walk into it. We had one of our friends in our group who said I didn’t want to walk into church because she said if I walked in she knew for sure that the whole thing would burn down. Do you remember that? Yes. And so, shout out my sweet friend. And I just I really thought, man, if you wait till you have the power to fix yourself, you might not make it to Jesus. ‘Cause that’s literally why he came. You know. So how do we hold both? accepting who we are today while still allowing God to change us. I think this is really the crux of things for me when things started unlock. How do you hold both?

Brenda: I In all honesty, it’s really hard

Kim: Yes.

Brenda: to hold both of these when Satan wants in all his might to destroy right. And so we go back to those lies that are feeding you. And so it’s been burning out those lies and replacing them with truth. But I had this just recently conversation with Jesus that I was like, my How dare I? How dare I not walk in my identity for my savior who was crushed and died like and pierced, like his blood poured out for me. Who am I to not acknowledge that he loves me that much and that I should be striving to the best of my ability? To walk beside him. Like it it it was heart wrenching for me. And I’ve never had that moment like that. and it’s made my perception and perspective on things shift wildly.

Kim: That’s why it wrecks me when I listen to that whole story, the whole story of Jesus’ death and resurrection. It wrecks me because if he was willing as a perfect person, willing to go to that cross, even if it was just you, or if it was just me, or if it was just you, he would still have done it for just the one. But he did it for every single one of us because he didn’t want anyone to perish, right? Then who am I to not live fully invested in him, in love with him, invested in his kingdom, working for whatever it is he’s got in front of me, right?

Brenda: And I think that freedom that he offers allows him to change us.

Kim: Yes.

Cindy: And isn’t it so self focused? If I you know, I’m not gonna do it yet. I gotta work on myself or whatever. I’m really just I’m just gonna focus on me. And you know, the truth is give it up. You know, just recognize, okay, God needs to work in me. God, please work in me. And then just get in the word, read the Bible, get to church, just start to grow.

Kim: Yeah.

Cindy: That’s how you change. That’s how you allow God to change you.

Kim: I also think there’s something about every time I went to go do something big for the kingdom, it called me to a higher step of accountability. And so I then was like, well, if I’m leading this group of children to the Lord, then that means my walk also needs to be, you know, as good as it could be, being a fallen person. But if I didn’t even try You know, I wasn’t acknowledging the work that these students were doing or these kids were doing. And so I feel like every time I tried to do something for the Lord, it helped me continue to want to grow and to want to be used by him and to be more dependent on him because I couldn’t do it on my own, clearly. It was, you know, through his power and divine in intervention that I really was able to, you know, shepherd other kids. So interesting. And it I wanna push back too. It might be selfishness, it might also be insecurity.

Cindy: Sure.

Kim: Right? So it could be either the arrogance or the insecurity because if I don’t see myself as worthy, right, then why would God use me anyways? Even if I could clean myself up. You know what I mean? So

Cindy: Again, that’s when we have to remind ourselves, who does God say that I am? Right. Because it absolutely is gonna be Satan shooting us down, reminding us, You don’t know anything. You know, who are you? Who do you think you are to lead anybody when you’ve gone through this? Yeah, you know, you’re still a mess or whatever. So

Kim: So true. It’s good stuff right there.

Brenda: Thankfully Scripture doesn’t seem to divide people into finished people God can use and unfinished people he can’t.

Cindy: Yeah.

Brenda: And we praise Jesus for that.

Cindy: Yeah.

Kim: Yeah.

Brenda: In fact, Scripture gives us this really interesting picture of something God has already done and something he is still doing. 2 Corinthians 5: 17

Cindy: So 2 Corinthians 5:17 tells us, therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come. The old is gone, the new is here.

Kim: I love this verse.

Cindy: That’s not presented as something we’re trying to earn. In Christ, something has already changed. Is it hard for you to believe that about yourself when parts of your life still don’t feel very new?

Kim: Yes.

Brenda: Sadly, the answer is yes. Of course. I mean, but at the same time, that’s just a battle of the mind, right? we’ve talked about it. and sometimes it can take a lengthy time to break a habit we’ve been living in for so long.

Kim: Yeah.

Brenda: Yes, exactly. You know, or there are other times where the miracle and newness happens immediately. Like those stories do exist. like I would argue for me, like me just having this revelation with Jesus of how dare I not walk this walk. Like it was an immediate revelation. It was an immediate this is how you’re gonna bend your knee to me now. Wow. versus other things have taken me a lot longer to absorb and change and shift in my spirit.

Kim: Mm-hmm.

Brenda: And that’s that I think is what your walk with your sanctification walk is.

Kim: Yeah. I do believe that. I have had to over and over in my mind repeat that verse. The old has gone, the new has come already. I mean, that’s not in the it’s not in the verse, but I had to fill that word in for myself. The you know, and it it’s amazing. for me, you know, there’s a lot of songs about Like I left it in the water and like I’ve been cleansed and I’ve been like, you know, refreshed and I’ve been redeemed and all those songs. it’s this for me, right? There was an old life that I had and when I met Christ, a new life began. And that new life has offered me hope a even in the midst of darkness. It’s offered me peace, especially in the moments that were tragic, right? And so Having life and newness in Christ has been what has carried me. It’s all I have got to cling to. Well, in Philippians one six it says, Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. I love this because it leaves room for both things to be true, right?

Brenda: Right, you’re new and he’s working on you. Yeah. I think that newness is you belong to him and you have a home. Right? You have that hope, you have that home. And now he has chosen you and he’s not gonna abandon you. Yeah. He’s gonna keep pushing forward to have you grow in him.

Kim: Does thinking about your growth as God’s ongoing work change the way you see the places you’re still struggling? It’s very personal. Well, for me, it’s sort of like this. When I was young, I kept thinking my unfinished self, the one that has all of the yuck in her, is an earthly bound problem. And then my heavenly bound soul is going to be whole and healed. And that’s how in a little kid’s brain I used to think of it. And it took me a really long time to realize I don’t think I have to wait. to be at the end of my life for God to actually restore, redeem, heal, and use the things that we’ve walked through. I think that while I’m struggling through the middle of it, knowing that God is at work in me helps me bring that future heavenly bound soul closer to here on earth. If that makes sense.

Brenda: It it does make sense. I also think when I recognize I’m still struggling with something, that idea that God is still working on me and still making me whole is like, well then it’s already gonna be done.

Cindy: Mm-hmm.

Brenda: It’s just not today. It’s just not today. And that’s okay. So we’re gonna keep going. We’re gonna move forward. What is he trying to teach me in it today? And I think maybe sometimes that’s just recognizing him.

Kim: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brenda: And then tomorrow maybe I won’t even have to deal with that struggle.

Kim: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, and remember we talked a few episodes ago about the cycle where the Lord kept bringing the same thing back to me again and

Brenda: And then again.

Kim: that was so brutal. But this is sort of that thing too, right? He was allowing me to see how much I’d grown and how much work he had done.

Brenda: So what are we supposed to do in between? Jesus gives us this beautiful picture in John 15: 4 & 5 Remain in me as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself, it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit. Apart from me you can do nothing.

Kim: This is so, so deep. I love this. Yes.

Brenda: Really instructional. He tells us to remain or abide in him because apart from him we can do

Kim: Nothing.

Brenda: And then I go, Well, okay, what do you mean I can’t do anything or nothing? I can do things, but I’m not gonna have fulfillment. Yes,

Kim: Mm-hmm. It’s gonna be empty.

Brenda: completely. Maybe our job isn’t frantic self improvement. Maybe it’s staying connected to Jesus. What is the difference between abiding in Jesus and trying really, really hard to become a better Christian?

Cindy: It’s huge. There’s no comparison.

Brenda: You think that’s like I’ve thought about this a lot. We’ve mentioned it, I think, too, before, about as we have grown older and walked through some things

Kim: Yeah.

Brenda: and really recognizing that difference between living out this religion and doing the things that religion says we’re supposed to do compared to actually walking alongside Jesus and carrying my cross. Like because you’re gonna have a cross no matter what, you’re gonna be carrying that sucker. But if you’re with Jesus, it gets lighter.

Cindy: Mm-hmm. I mean Yeah, I love that. I mean that’s that’s the truth.

Kim: That’s the truth. That’s it. I also think I can try to be better every single day and every single day I’m gonna fail at it because it’s not by might, it’s not by strength, it’s not by power that comes from me. I don’t have the ability to overcome the obstacles. I don’t have the ability to challenge the temptations. I don’t have the strength in my name to drive out demons. I don’t have the ability to make those changes, but Jesus does. And so it is by his power and his might. It is through his word. It is by his name that I can drive out demons and conquer those temptations. And so If I am abiding in Jesus, if I am resting, running to and being like lavished in him, then I don’t have to try harder to be a better Christian. I don’t know if that makes sense.

Brenda: I think it makes complete sense. It triggered I’m listening now to Jenny Allen’s book, Nothing to Prove Why We Can Stop Trying So Hard.

Kim: that’s why.

Brenda: And it’s this idea that we when we drive ourselves mad chasing perfection, we miss the beautiful grace God designed us to live in. And so far I’m not that far into the book, but she talks a lot about this striving to be perfect in all the things that we do. You know, and she talks about being a pastor’s wife, the mom, you know, the like all the things, you know, the writer, the speaker that she was like, I have to be perfect, but she also didn’t feel like she was enough. Right. You know, and she’s missing she felt like she was missing something until finally someone is like You are not enough. You know, she’s like, wait, what? Like

Kim: By design.

Brenda: by design, you’re not enough, but God is enough.

Cindy: Mm-hmm.

Brenda: And so this idea of perfection and trying super hard to be the best Christian ever, you know, it doesn’t work.

Kim: Right.

Brenda: You’re gonna be like, Why did I sign on to this? Yeah. Rather than chasing Jesus and spending time with him and abiding in him.

Cindy: Having complete dependency. Yeah.

Brenda: Yes.

Kim: I’ve been listening to Craig Richel’s Life Church sermons and he’s done a four-week thing on Esther and in the fourth the conclusion, if you will, of the Esther story, he tells a story about how he always felt not enough, not a good enough pastor, not a good enough father. You know, pick the pick the enough, he didn’t feel enough until he again came to the same conclusion. Yeah, I’m not supposed to be enough. It’s not Me, that’s supposed to be enough, but my grace is sufficient for you, right? says the Lord. And so just being able to understand it, rest in it, and then apply it to our not enough. And then that’s why, you know, I think it’s Paul when he talks about being able to boast about his weakness. Don’t quote me if that was not Paul. But

Cindy: Ha ha ha.

Kim: You know, I will boast even more about my weakness because that is when Christ’s strength shows up because I wasn’t able to do it.

Cindy: Right.

Brenda: It was Paul. Good,

Cindy: Okay.

Brenda: don’t worry. right, 2 Corinthians 12: 9 But he said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness. Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.

Kim: Yeah. And that’s exactly, you know, I think that’s that’s the answer to that question, right? if I’m abiding in Jesus, you know, or am I trying really hard to be a good Christian and when I’m looking at myself not being enough, this verse is the one that comes to my mind. Yeah. This is probably where it gets tricky for a lot of us, right? We wanna grow, we want God to heal what’s wounded and change what needs changing, but spiritual growth can quietly become another place that we perform. I definitely have done this, right? So how do we participate in what God is doing without making our relationship with Him one more self-improvement project?

Brenda: That just makes me sad thinking about it that way.

Kim: Why?

Brenda: ‘Cause I think there was a time when I had that idea, but I didn’t understand what Jesus had done for me.

Kim: Yeah.

Brenda: Like I knew I gave my life to Christ, but I don’t think I l allowed I mean you give your life to Christ and the Holy Spirit it now dwells in you. But I I didn’t have that recognition, I guess, of that. And so it became a I just need to better myself sort of situation and play church and all the things. So it’s sad, that’s a sad place to be because you eventually give up on that because it really hasn’t made any Yeah, no impact and I was thinking like no true inner change.

Kim: Mm-hmm.

Brenda: I’m just continuing to revel in the sin that I had done and then there was no growth. There’s nothing could be different because there was no relationship.

Kim: Yeah.

Cindy: How can we tell the difference between conviction from God and shame?

Kim: Man, so I have rivaled this and wrangled this and strangled this and spent a lot of time thinking about this particular question. So I love Lysa Terkeurst’s she kind of describes it like this, right? Guilt is a healthy recognition of doing something wrong. So you do something wrong, you feel guilty. Whereas Shame is a destructive, condemning belief that I am someone wrong. So the difference between guilt and shame in this instance is that guilt is something that can be used to bring you back to Jesus in redemptive restoration. But what happens for some of us is we go straight from, no, I did this really bad thing, I made this really bad mistake, and then it becomes I am the mistake. I am this really bad thing. I take on the identity of the thing. And that’s where shame just eats you. And this is totally a tactic from Satan. We know it is. But if anybody has that guilt complex, that shame complex, and you have lived with something for a really, really, really long time, good news. It’s time to break it.

Cindy: Mm-hmm.

Kim: Because you don’t have to carry this. shame is not a device from God.

Cindy: Right.

Kim: And that took me a long time to reconcile. Because God doesn’t use shame to bring you back to Him. That’s Satan stepping on you. What do you think?

Brenda: No, I agree. A pastor once told me enough is enough. Like I didn’t recognize that the the difference, I guess, between the guilt and the shame or thinking that I’m gonna make someone feel better for living in it. It’s

Kim: So

Brenda: also recognizing boundaries with other people that are in your life that may wanna keep you in the shame. And you’re trying to or you think you’re helping them by you staying stuck in it. Yeah. And you’re not helping either one of you.

Kim: Yeah.

Brenda: And so the pastor was like, Enough is enough. God did not die on the cross for you to live in that.

Kim: Wow. That’s that same thing, right? I think it’s the until you really come to grips with what Christ has done for you, it can’t change you. Right? But once you really start to come to grips with what that means in your life, it can open possibilities you never thought were possible, you know?

Brenda: Well Galatians 5: 22 and 23 talks about the fruit of the spirit, but the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control. Against such things there is no law. And maybe there’s something important even in that language. Fruit growth.

Kim: Man.

Brenda: So what happens when we think of spiritual maturity as fruit God grows in us rather than something we have to manufacture ourselves?

Kim: This is actually so a friend of mine, when we pray, she sees things in sort of movies or pictures or visuals, if you will. And one year she was praying for me and she said she sees an orange on the tree and it was growing and getting bigger. And I just thought, man, I don’t feel like I’m growing anything. You know what I mean? Like And so I was like, you know that has to be from God because literally I didn’t have the ability at that time to grow any fruit. And so this also I have run that list over my life at certain points and said, Do I display love? Do I display joy? Do I display peace? Like I went through all of these several times in my lifetime just to ask myself, is this what naturally flows out? From me, because I told you I was a sassy girl. And boy, I know you don’t believe it. I know you don’t believe it. I was sarcastic. I was sassy. And I could say things that just like cut to the bone. I was a mean, mean person. And it’s through this that I s kept sort of taking those edges off my rock, if you will, because I want to be the person whose fruit is growing. And not because I’m growing it, but because the Lord is doing a work inside and changing me so that I can display healthy, good fruit that’s growing. But it’s man

Brenda: Well, and it takes us back to the verse. We whatever good work he starts, he finishes. This is the good work he is doing within you to change your your inner being, your heart to be able to live out these things through the spirit. Again, not alone.

Kim: Yeah. This is

Brenda: So again, we are not enough to do these things all the time with all

Kim: No.

Brenda: on our own. We need the Holy Spirit.

Kim: Or even to yourself.

Brenda: that’s probably the hardest.

Kim: You know, to bring those fruit of the spirit into the conversations you’re having in your own head, right?

Brenda: Absolutely.

Cindy: I think God really taught me something through that, which was you can also really see the evidence of the Holy Spirit in someone if they don’t have any of those qualities whatsoever. It makes you really stop and think, you know, I had let someone in my life shame me. I was listening to this person and really feeling terrible about myself. And then I just started thinking, Hold on. Who is this that I’m allowing to judge me when I’m not seeing any evidence whatsoever of the fruit of the spirit in that person?

Kim: Yeah.

Cindy: And so God just really revealed to me, look for people that Bear fruit. You need you need fruit bearers in your life right now.

Brenda: That’s a good word. That’s

Kim: That’s a really good

Brenda: a really good word. Like if you’re struggling with your inner being and your peace and there is people in your life that are causing you pain and shame and grief. Like you do you need to find some some people that are displaying, you

Kim: Mm-hmm.

Brenda: know, Jesus qualities.

Kim: I love that. And maybe put up some boundaries for people who are not displaying the fruit of the spirit. And maybe it’s a prayer of discernment of Lord, can you help me look and see and know the difference? Mm-hmm. And also the organic you are growing the fruit as opposed to I am struggling and trying to display this fruit, right? ‘Cause if somebody is doing it on their own strength and their own power. It’s still not a fruit of the spirit.

Cindy: You have to have the spirit. It is the spirit in you that’s growing the fruit. You’re not doing it.

Kim: that’s cool.

Cindy: All of this sounds good around a podcast table. But then we wake up tomorrow morning, the dog throws up. Someone

Kim: Happens here.

Cindy: sends an irritating text. We’re running late and suddenly we don’t feel particularly whole anymore. So let’s make this practical. What actually helps you live from what you know is true when your feelings or circumstances are telling you something different?

Kim: Prayer. Honestly. So

Brenda: What does living whole actually look like on an ordinary Tuesday?

Kim: me on my knees praying for the day.

Brenda: you know, we’ve talked about those disciplines that you need to have to be able to abide in Jesus.

Kim: Mm-hmm.

Brenda: The morning routine, the prayer, being on your knees, studying the word, all of those things. But when you leave your house or you get up from that study, then what? And I have realized I need, in my spaces that I’m in in my day, I need visual reminders.

Kim: Mm.

Brenda: Because you can get so caught up in whatever is going on, whatever circumstance you’re dealing with or work you’re diving into, like your mind can just start to wander and the enemy uses those moments of wander to lie to you and to plant. I don’t know if you want to plant seeds, but just to get your mind to go somewhere else it shouldn’t go.

Kim: Yeah.

Brenda: And so in my office, I have a new office. I have a little Jesus and I have a beautiful rock that somebody painted me that says Jesus loves you. And I have your magnet that you gave us for Christmas on my whiteboard. they’re just reminders to take a minute. And pray before I go into a meeting or I deal with a student or I even after I’ve dealt with a situation of, you know, praising Jesus for the outcome or guidance for where we go from here. Like just reminding myself that all day long you can be talking to Jesus and and reminding myself all day long. I don’t know how many times today I looked at my rock to remind me that Jesus loves me a

Cindy: Ha ha ha.

Brenda: lot. And I think those are some practical ways in your life, like on your dashboard in your car, like wherever you spend your time, surround yourself with some visuals.

Kim: Mm-hmm.

Cindy: And for me it’s the music too. I I’m able since I work from home, I’m able to just have my music going in the background and it’s just worship music and it just always keeps me where I want my mind to be. Exactly.

Brenda: Exactly.

Kim: You guys I feel like I just went on a spiritual retreat ’cause we just took this trip to Yellowstone and I spent five days morning to night worship music in my headphones as we were riding through the most majestic, creation of the Lord and My songs talking about his majesty and his glory. And I’m just like, Yes, there it is, right there in front of me. I mean, and then you know, sometimes I’m standing on the motorcycle as we’re riding ’cause you can only sit down for so many hours when you’re out there and and I’m just like, Man, you feel like you’re flying through the middle of the Lord’s creation and you know, glory and majesty. It was like, this is a great spiritual retreat. It

Brenda: Have you?

Kim: was so good. Maybe this is where we land today. Living whole doesn’t mean pretending nothing hurts. So you’re not skipping over the pain or pretending, you know, that it doesn’t exist. It doesn’t mean we’ve conquered every insecurity, healed every wound, stopped every bad habit, or finally become the person we think we’re supposed to be. Maybe it means we stop waiting for that person before we live faithfully with God today.

Brenda: So thinking about your own life right now, where are you learning to say, God, I can trust you even here? Where in your life are you learning to trust God with something that is still unfinished?

Kim: Hm, that’s such a good question. Where in your life are you learning to trust God with something that is still unfinished? I wonder if all of us can identify the parts that are unfinished. Right. ‘Cause I think sometimes

Cindy: I know.

Kim: we don’t even recognize it until it rears its ugly head one moment and then we’re like, Still

Brenda: Yeah.

Kim: unfinished there.

Cindy: Right?

Brenda: Yes.

Cindy: And maybe one last question. What is one area where you know you’re still becoming but you’re learning not to see that unfinished place as evidence that you’re failing?

Kim: Think this is really, really important too, because for me, one of the lies I believe is that I’m a failure. And so if I’m looking at my unfinished place, it’s gonna say you’re such a failure, God could never use you. Right? And so this is a really interesting thing to ponder. Interesting.

Brenda: It’s having to remember that God is not finished with you yet.

Kim: Right? This is back to up to season one.

Brenda: Yes.

Kim: God’s not finished with us yet. And thankfully He’s not finished with us yet. Well, if there’s one thing we hope you take away from today’s conversation, it’s this. You don’t have to wait until you’re finished to live fully with God. Jesus has already made the way for us to belong to him. And at the same time, he is still restoring, teaching, healing, and transforming us. Wholeness doesn’t mean arriving at a place where nothing hurts, nothing is messy, and nothing needs to change.

Brenda: It means learning to live connected to Christ, trusting him with what he has already redeemed and what he is still restoring. You can follow him now, you can love people now, you can serve now, you can experience joy now, you can let him use your life now.

Cindy: Even here. Amen.

Kim: Right.

Cindy: Really, amen.

Brenda: I feel like that’s something you could just play on repeat. Like right now, you can make a difference right now.

Kim: Even here, right where you are. Mm hmm. I mean, honestly, I’d like this one. you can experience joy now. Can I can I take that one?

Brenda: Yeah, it might be hard for some people.

Kim: Right? No, it’s hard for a lot of people because when you’re in the middle of the mess, you don’t feel the joy. Right. Right? You can let him use your life now in the middle of the mess. Right.

Cindy: You don’t have to have all the answers at all.

Brenda: Or have it all together.

Cindy: Just one step. That’s all you need. One step in front.

Kim: I love that.

Cindy: Well, before we go, here’s something we’d love for you to reflect on this week. Where have you been waiting to become better before fully living the life God has for you? What would it look like to trust Him with that unfinished place this week?

Kim: Hmm. So interesting. I can’t wait for somebody to answer that reflection of the week.

Brenda: Maybe this week when you notice one of those unfinished places, instead of immediately trying to fix it or becoming discouraged by it, simply bring it to Jesus. God, this is still here, and so are you. We hope you’ll remember that God isn’t asking you to become whole apart from Him. He’s inviting you to remain close while He continues the work he’s already begun. You don’t have to wait for some future version of yourself to walk with him. You can meet him even here.

Kim: Mm-hmm. Well, how about we pray? Holy God, Creator of heaven and earth, maker of all things, Lord, you are amazing. You are divine. You are holy. You are worthy to be praised. We are so thankful to be your daughters and your sons. We are so thankful to be in your presence. We are so thankful for your Holy Spirit that guides us. That helps us, that points us in the right direction, that doesn’t shame us, but convicts us so that we turn around and run back to your arms. We’re so thankful for all of the beautiful work that you’re doing in each one of us. Lord, thank you that you do not leave us where we were. And Lord, would you give us the access to see the lies that we’ve been believing? To see the strongholds that have been holding on to us for too long, so that when we think of those unfinished places, would you replace those lies with your truth? Would you remind us that you are where we should be abiding? Would you remind us that you are growing the fruit within us? Would you remind us that That you are not finished with us yet. And would you also remind us that no matter where we are, you can use our story. Because that’s what you do, Lord. You take ordinary people and you do extraordinary things with them. So may it be said of us, may it be true of us. May we abide in you this week. May we come to you with our unfinished places. And would you be so kind as to continue growing us into the women and men that you’ve created us to be in your son’s holy name. Amen. Amen. Thanks for joining us around the table.

Cindy: We’ll leave you there for now.

Brenda: May God continue to bring you wholeness even here.

Jeremiah 17:9 – The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

Luke 9:23 – Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.

Proverbs 3:5–6 – Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.

Romans 7:15–25 –  I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.  As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 

Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

2 Corinthians 5:17 – Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

Philippians 1:6 – being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

John 15:4–5 – Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

2 Corinthians 12:9 – But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my poweris made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.

Galatians 5:22–23 – But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,  gentleness and self-control.Against such things there is no law.

Books

Nothing to Prove: Why We Can Stop Trying So Hard – Jennie Allen

Podcasts

Therapy and Theology – Bonus: Receiving Judgment, Reaching for Closure, Rebuilding Trust | Q&A Part 2 – Lysa Terkeurst describes codependency – “I need you to be okay, so I can be okay…”

Life Church – What Happened to You Isn’t the End of Your Story | Esther Part 5 – Craig Groeschel discusses “I am not enough”

Professional Support

Focus on the Family Christian Counselors Network
A nationwide network for finding licensed Christian mental health professionals who integrate clinical care with a Christian worldview. Focus on the Family also offers a free one-time phone consultation with a licensed or pastoral counselor and referrals for ongoing care.

Christian Care Connect, American Association of Christian Counselors (AACC)
A faith-based provider directory from the American Association of Christian Counselors that helps people connect with Christian mental health professionals and other caregivers.