Healthy Relationships in Messy Seasons

Welcome to Life Reclaimed.

A place for honest conversations about faith, healing, and real life.

We are three friends learning to walk in freedom and trust God through the messy middle.

Pull up a chair.

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Let’s dive in.

Welcome to Life Reclaimed Podcast.

I’m here with my friends, Brenda, Cindy.

And last time we talked about things people do know about us.

So today, let’s flip that.

What’s one thing people don’t know about you, Brenda?

Most people don’t know. That I have been in theater.

What?

No way.

I do theater.

Yes.

Yeah.

Been on the stage, did some melodrama plays.

What?

I’ve written plays.

Okay, wait.

What was your claim to fame? Like, what was your big role?

Lata. Lata Lashes.

Oh, Lataa Lashes.

Yes.

Oh, my gosh.

At the old Coloma Theater. Shout out.

Oh, wow.

I had no idea.

Yes.

Was that in high school, college?

No.

Adult life, actually.

What?

She was there last weekend.

My daughter got involved, who is now 25, but she was 12 and she got involved in theater.

I did plays in high school, and so it just kind of came back out and they were like, “Come do this play.”

And I, no, I fought it a lot.

And then I was like, okay, fell in love with it.

Super fun. Melodrama, if you’re not familiar, at the end.

Boo, it hiss.

Yes.

You know, the audience is very engaging.

And at the end, that, you know, the villain comes out, they get to throw aluminum foil balls at the villain.

You know, curses foiled again.

Super fun.

Wow, I would have never guessed.

So I, being the dancerer, theater is the next step that most dancers do.

So I did theater my whole life.

My kids were in theater their whole lives. Yeah, that is a big part of who we are around here.

So I was like that is really fun to know about you.

I’m a hidden thespian.

Over your athleticism and your volleyball.

There’s a theater person down there somewhere?

Yes.

I knew I liked you.

And Cindy, What do we not know about you?

Well, I do know how to play the piano.

Oh, my goodness.

Even though I don’t own a piano anymore, and I would have to really, really practice. But I did play for 10 years.

No way.

I played during college.

During college?

Yeah. 10 years, from 10 to 20.

It’ll be like, you know, what do they say? We’re getting back up on a bicycle.

You haven’t done for so long.

You probably might pick it right back up.

I haven’t done it in 30 years, so there’s that. Start with chopsticks.

So, what was your best piece that you loved? Like, if you just sat down and started playing, what would it be?

The Enter entertainer, Scott Joplin.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was fun.

Aw.

Ragtime.

I’ love that.

That’s cool..

And you?

Oh, yes.

Well, I traveled as an ambassador from America over to Europe for an entire summer, taking American song and dance all the way to so many countries, I couldn’t even name them all.

Wow.

We were in a different country every day.

It was an intense trip, but it was so cool.

And at the end of our show, we would jump off of the stage and go meet and greet the people in the country.

And a lot of times we couldn’t speak, but they were so grateful for our, you know, we didn’t have Google Translate then, on our phones. There were no cell phones.

But they were so grateful for our performances that they would just hug you and just want to just tell you thank you.

And it was just kind of the sweetest thing that at the end of a performance to be able to jump off the stage and go meet the audience.

And it was fun. It was such a great time.

I was 16 at the time.

What a great learning experience.

Oh, young.

I was young. 

And it was really great because I had this lady who kind of took me under her wing and she was a reporter and so she took me to see the changing of the guard and the Louvre and like all the things that I would never have thought to do at 16.

And so now I can say when people are like, oh, we want to go do the, you know, this thing, I can say, oh, yeah, I was there when I was 16.

That’s awesome.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Fun.

There you go.

Okay, well, that was super fun.

Now we know some more things about each other.

I love it.

We’ve been walking through our four seasons, healthy, whole, healed, and free.

Right now, we’re about halfway through our healthy season, the first season, but healthy doesn’t mean easy.

Today we’re thinking about healthy relationships and messy seasons and how to stay kind, honest, and faith filled in conflict.

Most of us want healthy relationships, but we don’t live in calm, perfect seasons.

So the question becomes, what does a healthy relationship look like when life feels messy?

God doesn’t call us to healthy relationships only when life is easy.

He invites us to reflect him, especially when it’s hard.

And Cindy, you were thinking before we define healthy, you wanted to define messy. Do you want to. Do you want to jump in there?

Yeah, I think that, you know, messy’s different for every person.

For me, just hearing the word messy makes me think that it’s a little less than. You know, it might be an argument with a friend.

It might be, you know, an argument with your husband or, you know, just your adult child is making choices that you don’t agree with, or maybe you have a parent who’s getting older, you know.

Not particularly traumatic, just difficult.

So there’s messy difficult, but then there’s also messy traumatic.

Sure.

You know, there’s things that happen in people’s lives. And so I think that we can think through the entire spectrum.

You know, I mean, everybody at some point probably, we all deal with messy, situational things. And then there are some of us that deal with, you know, messy traumatic too.

Sure.

I can say, I think I can apply both of those.

Yeah.

Well, and I’m assuming, you know, somebody listening to a Life Reclaimed Podcast perhaps has traveled through something that is really difficult.

And they would probably say it’s more than messy.

I agree.

So messy doesn’t need to sound superficial or light. Messy can also mean deep and painful.

Yeah.

We’ve got the whole spectrum.

All right.

Let’s define healthy.

What does a healthy relationship actually feel like or look like? Do we want to talk about this at all?

And it doesn’t have to be a spousal relationship. It could be a familial. It could be friend.

We’re just talking about relationships in general. What do healthy ones feel like or look like to you?

Well, there’s safety.

And that’s going to be with a friend or a spouse or, you know, I mean, safety where you can confide.

I love that.

And honesty and you can be yourself, you’re not perfect.

And then room for truth and grace.

So being able to take comments from friends and things or carefully give them some feedback, you know.

I think that’s hard.

It is hard.

I think it’s hard to give and it’s hard to receive feedback.

That’s painful.

And I think not everybody is open to that.

We immediately become defensive, right?

I mean, that is the tendency.

It’s really hard not to get defensive.

I think healthy relationship, especially when it comes to friends, that you can be yourself, that you can share where you’ve walked in life and know that that person you’re sharing with isn’t going to judge you.

I think that’s healthy.

I think when there’s fear involved, I think you’ve been crossing that line into unhealthy.

If you’re afraid to laugh at something or be silly or just be who you really are sharing things about yourself that nobody else knows.

You know, I think that can define a healthy friendship.

If you’re in a room with someone and you’re afraid to say something, then that might not be healthy situation.

I really love that because from what I’m hearing, if I feel like I can truly open up and be myself, that can feel like a healthy place.

But if I feel like I’m on eggshells or I am walking gently or I’m being guarded at what I say, not that I shouldn’t have a filter so that what I say is not hurtful to other people. But if I’m really having to watch everything I say, that might be an indication of unhealthy.

So let’s go there for a second.

Are there any other signs or indications for you that you’re possibly walking toward an unhealthy relationship or one of your children or one of your family members or one of your good friends is walking toward an unhealthy relationship ?

Well, you know, for me, personally, I got to a place where my communication was constantly misunderstood. I couldn’t seem to say the right thing.

Sometimes you feel like you’re under attack.

And, you know, again, just trying to ask questions or get clarification and just feeling like I constantly didn’t understand.

What am I saying that’s wrong here? You know, it was clearly unhealthy when the communication couldn’t, you know, there was no communication.

Sure.

I get that.

When you intentionally avoid topics, that I think is a very clear indication of, of unhealth in a relationship.

Yeah.

I was just thinking of my daughters who, you know, they’re in the dating world and they start talking to somebody or dating and you as a parent, you’re like, I see all the red flags.

What is happening?

And you are trying to, you know, have a healthy conversation with that child and then there’s, you just avoid the red flag or deny the red flag or excuse the red flag.

And then it’s, you know, my oldest daughter has walked through this recently and now that we’re full circle out of that relationship and she will say, yep, those were red flags.

Why did I ignore them?

So I think that the healthier you are, you will not deny those red flags.

You will have a healthy conversation about it with the person that you’re with or with somebody else.

Like, what do you think this means?

You know, you have your conversation with Jesus.

Help me have clarification in this relationship so that I can move forward in a healthy manner.

I really love this.

I think this goes back to our Bible study we did.

We studied the book Good Boundaries, Goodbyes by Lisa TerKeurst.

And one of the things she talks about in there is you will put up with whatever dysfunction you are willing to put up with.

And I feel like that starts to becoming unhealthy.

If you feel that you’re starting to live in dysfunction and you aren’t able to have the discussions to bring it into health, that’s probably an indication for me personally, of, man, this is an unhealthy friendship or man, this is an unhealthy relationship because I want to have good boundaries and I want to be able to have those good discussions.

And being able to bring things that are dysfunctional into the light can help rid the dysfunction.

That’s funny that you mentioned her because, I mean, that book really was fantastic. And, I mean, I got so much clarity from it and, you know, the same kind of thing.

What you allow in dysfunction, it becomes the norm. And you don’t really realize how, you know, how you’re, how you’re living.

You know, it’s not until somebody points it out.

Kindly says, why are you doing that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I appreciated that story.

It helped me.

All right.

Let’s identify why messy seasons complicate everything.

We talked a little bit about messy seasons.

You know, sometimes a messy season could be somebody’s traveling or somebody’s, you know, really busy at work.

It’s a busy season. They’re, you know, starting something new or whatever.

Sometimes that messy season, you know, could look like exhaustion. Maybe you’re caretaking for too many people and not taking care of yourself, and you’re just worn down.

You know, there are lots of ways that we get into messy seasons, but how does that make it especially hard on a relationship, do you think?

Well, you know, I was I was thinking about the causes of the mess, and then I thought to myself, you know, maybe I’m the mess.

And, you know, I have to own it from time to time.

You overdo it.

You’re overstressed.

So you’re short with the people that you love.

Love this.

Maybe, you know, hormones, middle age, you know, it’s just a nightmare.

And so I have to check myself and figure out maybe the problem isn’t with them. Maybe it’s with me and I need to be kinder or I need to take some time for myself and just pull back so that I’m better with people, easier and kinder.

Wow.

Wow.

So a little self-care.

We talked about this whatever.

I was just going to say, it takes us back to one of our last episodes when we talked about self-care.

But that makes it incredibly hard on a relationship.

You know, I mean, if you’re not taking care of yourself, then you’re snapping at everyone else or you can’t relate, you just take it out on them.

Have you had a rage day where like anything anyone says to you?

Oh my gosh.

Is it just me?

No, it’s not just you.

It’s not just you.

Oh, yeah.

And that’s having to be intentional on self-reflection.

Yes.

That having to remind the person that you’ve maybe snapped at, that please don’t take this personal.

This is definitely not you.

This is definitely me and my stuff and my baggage and my garbage. And my lack of sleep or my lack of eating or my lack of working out or I’m just doing too much.

And I’m frustrated with myself.

And then I, when I get frustrated with myself, I tend to then lash out at somebody else for sure. They can’t do anything right.

Correct.

Whatever.

And it’s not them.

And it’s not the way I would have done it.

And how could you have done it that way?

Yeah.

Right.

All those things.

Yes.

Yes.

So I definitely think messy seasons can be so difficult on any relationship.

And I I was thinking, though, when you’re in a messy season and I thought of new babies in the household.

Like that’s such a blessing, but it’s also messy.

Exhausting.

Because there is exhaustion.

If you’re a new parent, there’s the stress level. Am I doing it right? I do I breastfeed? Do I formula? When do I give the first real food?

Like all the things that poor new parents go through.

Will I be a good parent? 

And so I think messy and blessings can exist at the same time.

Oh, yeah, I do.

And so we want to be careful to acknowledge the blessings before God, but then also acknowledge the messy before God.

Actually, let’s just even go back to like marriage.

Like first six months or first year of marriage, too. It’s such a blessing, but also, I think there’s a lot of stress and, you know, in trepidation in that first year.

Somebody gave me great advice.

They said, first year of babies, you can’t make any big life decisions.

Oh, that’s great advice.

And I said, what are you talking about? And they said, you’re so tired.

You aren’t thinking clearly and you aren’t going to make your best decisions because you’re in the stress cycle of, you know, your brain just, it doesn’t have time to really process.

You’re panicked because you’re taking care of a crying baby, especially if your baby happens to be sick or, a couple of my children were very ill through their entire infancy.

And so it was such great advice for me not to make any huge life decisions that baby’s first year. 

Yeah.

Yeah.

They say the same thing about grief, you know, when you lose somebody. They say, don’t move, don’t do anything drastic. Just wait because you’re all over the place.

So, and I could see that with a baby too, you know, I mean, anytime when you’re sleep deprived or, you know, distracted.

Yeah.

I would almost argue that when you walk into a messy season and you know you have to make decisions, but those big decisions shouldn’t be made during that messy season, mostly.

No matter where it came from or what’s happening in the mess, because you’re not all there.

You are stressed and afraid and fatigued and all the things that come with a messy season that to make life changing altering decisions during that time.

No, bueno.

Yeah, you might not really be making them the way God intended you to make them.

Well, and you know what?

A lot of times you don’t have any control over that. You’re going to have to make a decision about something.

And that’s when it’s so important to get really good counsel, you know, I mean, because you can pray and that is great, but sometimes you just can’t hear.

You know, you just, you can’t hear it.

And so that’s in a season, I think it’s harder to hear.

Yeah.

I agree.

So getting good counsel from trusted friends, trusted mentors.

People who love God, are in the Word.

Yeah.

I think there’s wisdom in a multitude of counselors. I’ve always, it’s in the Bible.

I’ve always tried to seek my wisdom through my multitude of counselors, but I, as I’ve gotten older, I’ve decided that I wasn’t always picking the right counselors to be my multitude.

So I have changed and given myself a caveat that I need to seek wise counsel from people who are pursuing a relationship with Christ first because in my messy season, you’re right.

I might not be able to hear God as clearly because my mind is, my limbic system has probably taken over, right?

So I’m probably not rationally thinking when I’m stressed, but my friends who are in the Word, and who are praying daily, and who are really hearing from God, they can speak into me through the Holy Spirit who could inspire them to say something that is really important, what I really need to hear.

And I really love and appreciate that.

But if I’m seeking wisdom for my multitude of counselors and my counselors are constantly all absorbed with self, they’re probably not going to point me in the right direction of wisdom either.

Right.

So true.

So I guess we kind of talked about, how do I honor God in my relationships when I’m stressed, seeking that extra support from friends?

Is there anything else I can do to honor God in my relationships when I’m stressed?

I think keeping him in the center.

Yes.

You know, he should be the first that you go to.

Oh, that yes, you want the mentors and the counselors that, you need support.

We’re not designed to live this life alone, but if we put them before God, that’s not honoring God or maybe your relationship that you’re in.

I think seeking him first to guide you?

I mentioned, you know, earlier that honoring the blessings, but also being transparent with God.

He wants to hear the struggle. He wants to know, he wants to be able to help you and guide you and love you through it.

I think going to him first is number one.

Love that.

Yeah.

And you make me think, Brenda, you know, you were talking about your daughter and how you could see the red flags and all that.

And I think about God as our heavenly Father.

You know, he knows what’s going to happen. He knows what, what we’re gonna do.

And he sees the red flags, you know, but like you and your daughter, if she comes to you and just acknowledges that you have, you have knowledge that you can share with her.

How does that make you feel as a mom?

Yeah.

Wanted.

Yeah.

Needed, Appreciated.

And I think that, you know, that’s how we honor God, too.

You know, when we go to him first, then we make him feel like that too.

Yeah, that’s good.

That’s good.

And I like to journal.

And what I have found with that is when I, when I first go to God and I first write down whatever I’m struggling with or whatever, then I’ve got it down. Documented and, you know, then to get those answers and be able to go back and see, you know, and then just try to get the wise counsel to, what are people suggesting, what scripture comes through when I’m reading the Bible?

How am I getting these answers?

It’s just great to have kind of that documentation.

That’s so good.

I think God’s faithfulness is what his carried me through messy seasons.

I have lived some hard, hard stuff from childhood on.

And as I’ve lived through each of it, I can go back to you and I can almost attribute where God was in the situation and how he carried me through it, and how he protected me from different aspects that could have been just disastrous.

And honestly, that faithfulness of him constantly being with me in the messy, not necessarily always removing me from the messy, but carrying me through the messy to the other side of it.

That faithfulness, I can look back and I can list you miracle after miracle, after miracle that he has done in my, in my life, which I was like, I mean, do miracles still happen?

You know, some people don’t think they still happen.

But absolutely they do.

And I can attest to his faithfulness, even just if I read the Bible and saw his faithfulness from day one and still can relate it to some of our friends and some of our current situations, that faithfulness helps me when I’m stressed.

Another thing that has been helpful for me is asking myself, am I treating this person or looking at this person the way God sees them?

Because I am not the person who will always think the best about others.

I don’t know if that’s you. If that’s you, I’m so jealous.

There are people in my life who they always assume the best about everyone. And I have to work at that. That is not my natural self.

I have to work to see the best in everybody when I look at them first. And when I see them do reactions and when I hear what they say, I, my mind assumes the worst.

I think it’s because of my life and my childhood, and so I really have to ask myself, is that how God sees that person?

Does God see them, the best in them or is God seeing the yuck in them?

And that has been really kind of changing for me.

I have a thought on that, but I’m going to tread really lightly here.

Okay.

Because we’re not God.

And I have in the past tried to see that person the way God sees them.

And so forgiving things that or overlooking things that I shouldn’t have. You know, I should be really careful.

I just want to be careful about that because sometimes, like you were talking about Good Boundaries and Goodbyes, there comes a time with some people that the relationship may be toxic, the relationship, you know, and trying to see them through God’s eyes, that’s great.

But for a minute I see them. They can’t be in my life.

Yeah.

And it sounds really harsh and I hate to say sound harsh, but we have to be careful on that too.

I’ve definitely had people in my life, family members that I’ve needed to not talk to anymore and had to put up boundaries and not be in their lives because they were harmful and toxic.

But I think what you’re talking about is a pattern of repeated things that show us their genuine character.

What I’m suggesting is I was actually not giving them the benefit of the doubt from the beginning and not seeing the best in them at the beginning.

And so my treatment of them was probably judgmental from the start, right?

As opposed to had I given them the benefit of the doubt from the get-go, my treatment of them would have been gentler and kinder and maybe our working relationship would have been a little bit stronger because we would have gotten along better, sure.

But I guess there’s degrees of all of that, right?

I want to see the best in people, but if they give me a repeated pattern of their character, they don’t have out best interest at heart. Then that probably tells me I need to walk carefully through that situation.

I think what you’re talking about, we all deal with that a lot.

And treating somebody like, like we would like to be treated, giving them the grace, assuming the best.

I think that, that’s what God would have for us, you know, and in that case, seeing them the way that God sees them.

Yes.

But we have to remember that while God does love everybody, he also makes a very clear distinction between those who walk away from him and those who run to him.

Yes.

Yes.

And those that continue to follow darkness and a path of sin and choose to turn away or not even claim him as their father, he too releases.

Yes.

So while we’re living in this world and we recognize that evil does exist and there is darkness in people, somebody continues to make that choice and show that, then I think as God, you can, just let God, you, you love them, but you also have to release them.

And let God do what he’s going to do.

Exactly.

Get out of the way.

Yes.

You know, sometimes that’s the situation too.

For sure.

I want to talk about some things that I can do in I’m a relationship. I want to talk about things I can own.

And for instance, my tone, my words, my reactions to people.

I had a relationship. And with this relationship, I would answer the phone, hi.

And then they would speak and say hello, and then immediately my tone would be like, oh hi.

Right.

And so they told me later how they really felt devalued because my tone went from happy and cheerful and excited to talk to someone on the phone to, oh, it’s you.

I don’t necessarily want to talk to you.

And I, it really talked.

I can’t believe that.

I can’t believe that.

I just can’t imagine that from you.

Really?

Really?

Why?

Because I’ve worked really hard at it.

Well, because this person taught me a really valuable lesson that those first ten seconds of greeting someone can tell you how much you value them or how much you devalue them.

And that, that was hard to hear. The feedback was hard to hear. And it was not at the right moment, and it was in the middle of a fight, and I was really angry to hear it.

But… That little bit of information I’ve really thought about for a long time.

And then I started to ask myself, how am I I showing people when I come into a relationship, or I come into a room, or get on the phone with them?

How am I showing them that I value them with my tone of voice?

I mean, it just shocked me that my tone had that much influence.

Oh, yeah.

Same with your body language.

Yeah.

I mean, that says a lot.

It says a lot..

Yeah.

Well, we’re talking about tone and words.

There are a multitude of verses in the Bible about your tongue.

Yes.

You know, taming your tongue, controlling what you speak and how you speak it takes, and I love that word in intention. It takes intentionality to be able to be kind, which is sad, but it does.

We have to think about what we’re going to say before we say it.

Isn’t that’s what we teach our kids? As fifth grade teacher.

Like we talk about it almost every day in my classroom, you know, thinking about what we do and say, before we do and say it and how it affects other people, and how we don’t know what other people are walking through.. Know, and having empathy and using your metacognition.

Think about what you’re thinking. Before you speak it.

Straight out of the Bible.

When we are in a messy situation, particularly, I think my tone, my words, and my reactions are short because I don’t have time, I don’t have patience.

I am stressed. I’ve got a million things on my plate that I have to accomplish. You know, you make a thousand decisions in a day and you just are trying to like, go, go, go, go.

And so I will write text messages or emails that are short and tert, and not necessarily kind and flowery.

And that doesn’t always go well.

Especially with texting and email. I mean, we are not face to face to have this conversation. You know, I’m not mad at you.

I apologize if however, my text came through seemed like I was mad at you.

I so, I think we have to be really be careful too, when we’re messaging in this today’s world of instant messaging.

You can’t hear the tone.

You can’t hear the tone or see the heart from that person.

Yeah.

I think Proverbs 21:23.

Whoever keeps his mouth and his tongue keeps himself out of trouble.

Oh, that’s so good.

And I thought, man, if I only knew this for verse.

Wait, say it again.

Years ago, whoever keeps his mouth and his tongue keeps himself out of trouble.

Oh, that’s the slowest beak.

Bite your tongue, right?

Yeah.

You know, it’s really choosing your words wisely, when to choose them and how you choose them well.

There’s also a verse that talks about in the room that you’re in, don’t be the one who’s talking the most.

If you want to be known as wise, choose the conversation that you want to talk about because you’re going to end up showing you’re a fool if you’re a fool and you’re going to end up looking wise if you want to be wise because you’re going to talk about the things that matter.

I don’t want that.

It’s wrapped up in Proverbs 15:2 The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouths of fools pour out folly.

There it is.

Yeah.

Definitely wrapped up in that one.

This is probably a whole episode on your tongue. And please don’t hear us like we’re saints in this.

We are all guilty.

Oh, I gave my example.

Exactly of this, of speaking out of turn.

And then I think there’s a flip side that Cindy, you kind of talked about of sometimes maybe we bite our tongue too much.

Right.

That we allow things to go on for so long and then maybe we’re built up and we’re frustrated and then we’re speaking.

Right..

There’s that.

You know, there’s that piece.

I should have mentioned it 30 times ago when you did this, or said this, and how it affected me, but I made all the excuses of why it’s not that big a deal and let it roll off.

I’m afraid to bring this topic up.

Yes.

It’s awkward.

Or if I bring it up, I’m, I’m just going to make a big deal out of something.

Yes, I’m making a big deal out of something or you were just joking.

Or I’m criticized what you did, blah, blah, blah.

So we bite our tongue.

And then 30 years later, you’re like why did I bite my tongue?

I think there’s also a lot of women that I know, this is not all women, but a lot of women I know are what I would call a stuffer.

And so we stuff down our emotions and things that hurt us possibly, and we stuff and stuff, and stuff, and stuff until we explode.

And I think sometimes, sometimes when you are raging, angry, taking a step back and looking at, what have I been stuffing?

And why am I now exploding?

Why is it now happening?

And I think those are good questions to own and to ask.

You were talking about taking the ownership of, “I might be the mess.”

I might not have thought I was the mess, but if I’ve been stuffing something and I finally can’t take it anymore and I now start lashing out about it, it could be that I’ve been under-recognizing a dysfunction, and I need that dysfunction to come to light and be healed, and dealt with in a healthy way.

Yeah.

I mean, I think everybody stuffs because they’re avoiding conflict.

Yes.

They think they’re avoiding conflict, but what they’re doing is they’re internalizing conflict.

And at some point you’re either going to just explode or you’re going to implode and have a just a mental breakdown.

Or physical one.

Yeah.

Literally can make you physically safe.

Sure.

So it should be mature, emotionally mature, and bring things up that are difficult conversations.

You know, we need to do it. In a loving way.

Yeah.

With good parameters around it, at a good time of day, when both people are firing on all cylinders. Not at night, as one of you is falling asleep.

Yeah.

Lisa Terkeurst, not to bring her up again, she’s amazing.

Just go and find a book of hers, and you’ll grow and learn.

But I know listening to her podcast, she has a book on it, but there’s one where she talks about the, there’s like four quadrants of people in a relationship and one of them is the stuffer.

Yep.

You know, and which, I think is actually she defines differently than the avoidant.

Yes.

You know, it’s, and I can’t think of what the other two are.

They’re only the opposite polar opposites.

I have to go back and revisit that podcast.

But I myself, I’ve recognized, I, I’m an avoidant, but not with everybody.

Oh, interesting.

Which I find really intriguing and sort of just doing a lot of work on trying to figure that out.

It’s weird.

Like I, I don’t know, I haven’t figured it all out, but I start getting into it.

So I, I definitely, I come off to, I think, to women, usually very confident and outspoken and, you know, got her opinions.

I absolutely do.

But men tend to be more intimidating.

That’s so interesting.

Hmm.

We’ll have to psychoanalyze that one day.

Yeah, one day..

Let’s get into it.

Well, and so in a messy season with relationships, there are things I control, like my tone, my words, my attitudes, my stuffing, and how I handle dysfunction.

But there’s also things I can’t control.

Are there any things that you could think of that I probably can’t control in a relationship during a messy season?

Well, you definitely can’t control how others react or respond.

Sure.

Their words and their choices are their words and their choices.

Well, I don’t get to control that?

Unfortunately, no.

But I want them to speak nicely to me.

I do wish there are times.

Is there an on button? Is there an off button?

Like, give me the remote control to handle you. So I know how to I can turn up the brightness and turn down the volume. For sure.

But because of that, then I start to think about, well, they can’t control me either.

Oh, yeah.

So only I can do that.

I think they’re, you, you cannot control their perception.

That’s tough.

You know?

Like, you intend one thing and they hear it completely different.

That has happened to me so many times.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you’re confused. Like, what did I say? Because I didn’t, I certainly didn’t mean to, you know, Offend you 

Offend you.

Yes.

But, I guess, you know, maybe just checking in with them as you’re having the conversation and just making sure their understanding where you’re coming from.

Okay, being an educator, where we take all these classes, right, about communication, being good communicators.

So I took this course. It was a live session, and he said, you do not get to decide what the audience hears.

You can determine that you were speaking, that you said what you meant to say, but every person sitting in that room heard it and interpreted it through their own lens, their own lived experiences, and their own biases.

So every one of the room will have heard something different, even though you said one thing.

And it blew my mind because that’s the perception, right?

Again, if I’m assuming the worst in someone, my perception of that sentence can be completely opposite of their intention.

Yeah.

If I’m assuming the best in someone, the same thing.

They might have said something that actually was snarky, and I interpreted it as positive.

Right.

Or just laughed at it.

Or somebody else interpreted that as just being rude.

Right.

Right.

So perception is so huge.

Oh, that’s such a good point.

Yeah.

That is very good.

Yeah, and you’ your confidence level, I mean, as you’re listening to somebody, if you feel very confident and they’re not attacking you, but if you are lacking confidence, then it’s all aimed at you.

You’re doing something wrong.

You just hear it, you know, and you beat yourself up over it.

I think the guilt and shame some people carry for either something they’ve done, or something that was done to them, or just they had a rough childhood where they came out with some of this guilt and shame that they carry, that guilt and shame can wreck your confidence in going into confrontational situations.

Because if you already believe you’re worthless, if you already believe you’re unlovable, if you already believe you’re helpless or you’re broken, then why do you think you’re going to make someone defend you?

Stand up for you?

Either they mean protect you.

So I think that’s true.

That confidence really plays a big role in your relationship and how you see it and how you approach it and what you say and what you don’t.

Well, and just reminding ourselves that my confidence is in Christ.

Amen.

Amen.

That’s the thing, you know?

I mean, make sure my lens is on God.

Yes.

Easier said than done.

Sometimes, you know?

Yes.

Yes.

I was just listening to this morning on the Bible app and he said, Christ came and suffered because of the joy that was set before him.

I heard this too.

And I thought, oh my gosh, like the joy is on the other side.

You’re here in this struggle, in this mess to draw closer to God. And he will get you to the other side where he has joy for you.

I just was like, oh my gosh, that is beautiful. Beautiful and encouraging, you know, when you are in a messy situation in life, messy scenario, which I am currently am walking through my own mess.

Aren’t we all?

Yes.

And so it was, I have to get through this hard stuff, this painful stuff, maybe some really difficult conversations to get the joy that I know God has waiting.

Yeah.

Well, I can’t wait for that day.

I really.

I’m excited for joy.

So let’s just give some practical strategies or samples of what we can do during our relationships in a messy season.

So, for instance, connecting.

Let’s say that I notice that I am in a hard relationship, maybe connecting with them, getting someone on one time with somebody that, that I’m having a hard relationship with at the moment, might actually really help, that face to face can sometimes reconnect us.

So connecting.

What are some other things that I maybe could do, some practical strategies I could use?

Praying together.

Depending on the, I mean, not really depending on the relationship. I guess you should be praying together with your friends or with a spouse. Or your kids.

I think that’s super helpful.

Actually, Cindy and I got on the phone the other night and we prayed, and prayed, and prayed.

It was probably like, I don’t know, 

20 minutes.

At least.

And we just kept praying and praying.

The Lord just lead it, and we just kept going with it.

I love that.

Yeah.

Okay.

I wanted to introduce this thing.

I was listening to, obviously, a podcast, and they talked about the seven-second hug for married couples.

And what they said was, even if you’re in the same room or same house, or you’re just greeting each other at the beginning of the day or whatever, a seven-second hug allows enough time for your brain to sort of relax enough to really feel that other person’s love and care for you.

And I laughed at it, in the beginning.

I thought it was such a crazy idea.

But what I’ve noticed is, even if it’s not a married couple, if I hug someone for a little bit longer, just like give them a good hug, hold them for just a second.

I’ll either bring them to tears or they will just go, wow, that was such a great hug. Thanks.

Not like a weird, awkward, sorry, that sounds really creepy. I’m not saying be creepy and like hold your friends for a long time.

I’m just saying, given just a hug where you, you sort of intentionally just let that person know you love them, not like a quick hi-bye, this is a fake hug. I don’t really care about you.

My son gave me a hug a while back and it was like, I just, I went in for the hug and then I was kind of pulling away and he just grabbed me up and he squeezed me.

He’s taller than me. He’s, you know, it’s almost six feet. And so he just held me really tight for probably seven seconds.

And I’ll tell you what, I felt so loved.

Yeah.

That is, you’re not kidding.

Yeah.

And it makes me want to do, I want to hug my daughter.

Yeah.

Same thing, just like super intentional about just expressing to them how loved they are.

Yeah.

Yes.

Years ago, when I first got into education, a gal was one of my mentors. She said, if a child reaches in to hug you, you are not the first to let go.

That you hug them until they pull away.

And you will be surprised how long a child will hold on to you for, how empty their bucket is.

They need it.

They need it filled.

You know where else they do that? Disneyland.

Oh, yeah, the princesses and the characters.

That’s a rule there.

That’s really interesting.

Yeah.

Oh, I love that one.

I know.

Isn’t that neat?

Yeah.

So there’s definitely, there’s probably studies and things done on a hug.

I’m sure there is.

But I have found that to be so true.

And just the other day at work, I had a gal give me a hug.

She could tell I needed that.

And she just held on to me and let me just relax into her hug and it got me through the rest of the day, you know, and I think that is a great idea that is easy to implement in your life.

It’s easy.

Yeah.

Just letting the people around you that you love, know that you love them.

We also talked about the first five seconds of your interaction with someone are going to dictate that conversation.

And so that’s why generally my first five seconds with someone, I try to hug them to begin with, and I smile and I raise my voice and I try to tell them how excited I am to see them.

And I do, I mean, when you guys come, I do try to do that to everyone who comes into the house because I want them to feel that love and reassurance the minute they get here.

And they’re welcomed.

Yes.

And I think it’s cool because you guys have started doing it to each other.

We follow our leader.

It creates a community.

It does.

Well, I think it tells you that you’re wanted. You’re valued.

You’re valued.

Your loved.

Yeah.

Who knew? A seven-second hug. That I heard on a podcast.

I know.

Okay, what about communication awareness?

What are some some strategies we can do?

Oh, those first five seconds.

First five seconds.

I definitely think your body language.

Because you could express one thing, but your body language is saying something completely different.

You know, your facial expressions, your tone in your voice, like all those things put together.

My natural is such a sassy girl. My body language, my whole life, I’ve really had to train myself not to put the hand on the hip, not to do the rolling of the neck, not to do the sassy eyes.

I am such a sassy girl, and I would have to work really hard to not be sassy with my body language, because that’s my natural.

Yeah.

That’s great.

I feel you.

And then, obviously communicating with your voice inflection, like we talked about earlier, just being aware that when you say things, you may not have the inflection that has their best interest at heart, their relationship good, right?

You might be actually be doing harm to the relationship, just in the inflection in your voice.

So just being aware of that.

Support systems?

Sure.

You want to talk about support systems?

Yeah.

Well, as I mentioned earlier, just wise counsel.

Yes.

You know, being sure that you’ve got those friends that you can lean on, who’ll pray with you, that you can trust. Trust, period.

Yeah.

And sometimes counseling, sometimes going to a professional where they can also confirm kind of how you’re feeling or send you down a different direction.

So, I mean.

And I think we should recognize here that it’s highly possible.

There are listeners that turned to what they thought were wise friends and ended up being betrayed.

I definitely had that happen.

It’s brutal.

I think as females, we probably suffer through this more than men.

So you, with that history, we need to be seeking God first and asking for direction with someone in my life, please, please bring someone into my life that is trustworthy and then I can confide in and seek wisdom from.

Yes.

Because I know I have, I have friends who that, you know, that was the pastor and then they were betrayed by the pastor.

So you have all these different scenarios that have made maybe a messy situation messier.

Yes.

So if you are seeking someone, turn to God first, ask for someone in your life.

Feel free to reach out to us.

Yes, absolutely.

We would love to hear you and sit with you, and chat with you, and help you, if we can.

I think we need to be cautious with that too.

I agree.

I know people who have gone to a Christian counselor and the advice that they got from the Christian counselor seemed really hard for their messy situation that they were in.

So I think running everything through the lens of God and the scripture is really, really important.

And just that’s when you get advice and then you go to those trusted few in your inner circle and say, this is the advice that I have received. Does this sound like it’s in line with God’s word? Does this sound like this is from God’s point of view?

And then being able to wrestle with God in prayer and say, God, I’ve heard this advice, is this what you have for me?

And then letting all of the things come together, letting the Lord tell you, letting the scripture show up and letting wise counsel be able to speak into it.

And I feel pretty confident to say that if you’re questioning it, it’s probably not good advice.

That’s probably not good advice.

If you’re just like, that doesn’t sit right.

Like that doesn’t sound right or feel right.

Or I think that might be out of alignment.

Odds are you’re probably right.

Yeah.

Well, and that takes us to our spiritual anchors, right?

As a friendship or as a marriage or as a family. What are the spiritual anchors? What kind of practical strategies can we use there?

Well, I think definitely being in your Bible.

Yes.

Alone or together?

Both, if you can.

Okay.

No, for me right now, I’m, it’s me individually.

Yeah.

Praying for togetherness, but that doesn’t keep you from being in the Bible and you from growing.

Absolutely.

Not Not going to church and not reading my Bible because that wasn’t a part of our lives, you know, and I should have trusted my gut to tell me that, that was something that I needed to be doing regardless.

I trying to avoid conflict.

And so following their lead rather than doing what I that I needed to do.

And so I love the idea of reading the Bible together or individually.

I love the idea of going to church together.

I love all of that.

It’s so important in a relationship.

Yeah.

So I think this is when we remind ourselves that we follow God’s lead first.

Amen.

Amen.

Yes.

Go, sister.

Yeah.

Follow God’s lead first. And he wants you to be in community. He wants you to be in the Word. He wants you to be talking to him.

Right.

Whether it’s just you or both of you.

You know, we all want that.

We strive for that.

If we’re trying to live out a Christian relationship, be it marriage, friendship, family. Family, that we want to be in a situation where we can read the Bible together or ponder scripture together and pray together.

Sing together.

Sing together.

Yeah.

But if that that person is not, that doesn’t mean you don’t.

And sometimes that’s the sacrifice and the stuffing that we do, because we’re trying to please the people somebody said, avoiding conflict.

Yeah.

Because we have so much on our plate already.

I don’t need that conflict.

Yeah.

Right.

So I’m fine.

I don’t need to be in God’s Word. I don’t need to be in God’s house. I don’t need to be with God’s people.

I can make this work.

And I’ll just pray on my own.

Yes.

You know, quietly.

And do you know, this is Satan. His biggest tactic is isolation.

I was going to say the same thing.

Yeah.

That is what. What he wants.

Because if you can isolate the lamb, you can, you can just pick them out out of the group.

Yep.

Well, and even I read this the other day of, I never thought about it this way that, well, once you have accepted Jesus into your heart and he is your savior and you have confessed your sins and you, you’re going to heaven.

You’re going.

You’re his.

But that doesn’t mean Satan stops attacking you.

He now is going after your reward.

Yes.

Because we will all have that moment where Jesus gives our rewards based on how we pursued him.

And, you know, and so Satan doesn’t stop just because you believe – he believes.

He knows God exists. He knows it’s all real. So he’s not going to stop.

He’s just going to attack something else to prevent you from the blessings.

And the more isolated and defeated, he can make you feel the less likely you are to chase after God.

Exactly.

Exactly.

So an important thing to do for us is to invite God into the tension of our messiness instead of avoiding him.

I think this is actually something really pivotal.

Most of us think we have to get our mess together before we can come to God.

And I just want to state for the record, that is not been my experience that God has carried me through the messy and I’ve been able to go to him and say, Lord, this is a mess.

How can I get through this as gracefully as possible.

And he has carried and sustained me through those messy moments.

I think we can pull out any person in the Bible.

Yes.

Yes.

And that is their story.

Right.

I mean, I think of David.

All – Everybody.

All of them.

Ruth, Naomi, Esther.

Joseph.

Like all of them, there’s been mess, yet they sought God and said, my heart is burdened.

I am in the pit. I am amongst my enemies. Yet you are here to guide me and protect me. You are my refuge.

Thank you.

And my strength and my tower and my strong shield.

We have to remember that.

That’s going back to the faithfulness of God that we talked about, remembering all that God has already accomplished before you, creating you, during your life, in your life, and after, and for eternity.

Exactly.

Like he is there.

So we want to keep him in the forefront of everything.

Love that.

I love that.

And then just another practical strategy.

We are still learning how to set boundaries, when to set boundaries, and why to set boundaries.

This is a journey we are on. So we don’t have this perfected, but we can say we are better today at setting boundaries than we were a year ago, right?

Yes.

“What do I need right now to stay healthy?” Is usually my first question I ask?

Because that’s going to help me decide where those boundaries need to come.

Because sometimes I only need a boundary that I can set and I don’t need to tell anyone else about it even. But maybe I just need to reserve some time to rest.

You know, that could be a boundary.

I need to set a Sabbath for the next month so that I’m really getting replenished and, you know, regenerated each month, each week so that I can handle my weekly stress and not lash out on my family or friends, right?

So what do you guys think?

I agree.

I think sometimes the boundary is in learning how to say no.

Oh, I’m so bad at that.

We, A lot of us take on way more than we should.

We can handle it. We can take it on. We can handle it for sure.

But then we are not leaving space for God.

Margin.

Yes.

So I think there’s a good boundary in saying no.

Maybe even, I don’t know, where I work.

I work with amazing people and they’re really social after work. I love it, and I’m a little jealous about it.

But at the same time I have to say no because I don’t have the time.

I would then be taking away from family, which I already take family time away because I’m working, and I’m coaching, and I’m gone so much.

So, you know, giving up another chunk of time for that kind of socialization. That’s where I’ve had to kind of put a boundary for myself.

I’m part of the group chat.

I see it.

I, you know, get to be invited, which I appreciate and love, but not been able to make that part of my time.

Just being intentional with your time.

Somebody gave me a card once and the outside of the card said, sometimes you have to give up something really good to gain something super great.

And I was like, oh, it’s so true, right?

Sometimes you may have to give up that really, really good time with your coworkers, your friends because you need that great time with God and with your family, right?

I mean, those are just some boundaries and sacrifices that, and it’s good. I mean, it would be a good time and you would be refreshed a little bit, you know, with your friends, but also.

Yeah, I get that.

But just this philosophy that boundaries are not rejection. They are protection.

So I just wanted to throw that out there.

Hey, let’s go to some verses.

Anybody want to start?

Ecclesiastes 4:9-10 Two are better than one because they have a good return for their labor. If either of them falls down, one can help the other up. But pity anyway who falls and has no one to help them up.

So that’s why there’s three of us in this podcast.

Yes.

Yeah.

This verse actually makes me sad because because I think there are so many people out there who are alone and feel like they don’t have anybody.

Well, they have God.

They do.

They do.

And having walked through that, you know, I know I have God, but we’re also created to be in community.

To be in community and have human connections.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So while we can say, you have God, that’s not always, I know for me, when I was told that, I’m like, yeah, great. Okay. Thanks.

You know, I’m still, I’m still lonely. So spiritually, I may not be lonely.

Right.

But humanly, physically, that connection other people is okay.

Yeah.

So Jenny Allen wrote a book called Find Your People. And I read this book years ago when it first came out.

And she basically said, if you find yourself lonely and not in community, be the one who creates it.

Be the one who starts the Bible study, or be the one who starts the, you know, Saturday Night Supper Club or be the one who starts the game nights in your neighborhood or be the one who, you know, starts to pull people together because most people who are lonely just need an invitation.

And if you’re willing to step out and just have an open home, it doesn’t even have to be the perfect home.

You can have a messy apartment.

You could live, you know, wherever you live, just being willing to open your door and invite people over.

It’s shocking how many people will actually say yes.

Say yes, show up and really get plugged in.

That’s good.

You build your own community starting from there.

That’s good.

Yeah.

Yeah, if God puts somebody on your heart, you’ll know.

You’ll know if you need to reach out and, you know, try to include them somehow.

Yeah.

So if you’re feeling a little like you need some more friends around, start something. Start a craft club, start a Bible study, walking group.

Yes.

Just start something and build it from there and you’ll get some friends.

In Romans 12:18 – if it is possible as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

I think this is hard for me because I know that I’ve not been able to live at peace with everyone in my life. And so there are people that I have had to walk away from, whether work, or family, or other things.

Right.

And the more I studied Romans 12, our church did Romans 12 for like a year. Literally.

Just Romans 12.

We just dove deep into it.

There’s a lot in there.

And the more I studied this verse, the more I was able to start to say, I’m going to take every effort to have as healthy relationship as possible until it’s unhealthy and I need to put up boundaries.

And I’m going to be okay putting up those boundaries because God has not called me to live in an unhealthy relationship.

And so there are people that I’m not going to be able to live at peace with, but I am at peace knowing that I did try to really bridge that gap with these people.

And I tried to even mend fences when they were broken. And then I even tried to reach out an olive branch and tried to, you know, go at it again.

And when that person did the repeated character, you know, exposition of who they are and that they’re not willing to make amends, then I can say, I can live at peace with this.

But this took me a long time.

And God doesn’t ask us for any more than that.

Oh.

You know, I mean, I think that’s great.

I love that.

I love that you, you brought that up.

Yeah.

It’s hard.

Oh, yeah.

Of course.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because if you don’t want conflict and you want to keep things peaceful, you know, and how you interpret that, you know, I guess I can just keep taking more or whatever.

God help me keep stuffing.

Yeah.

Stuffing is not living it in peace.

No, to clarify.

Right.

No.

That’s not what that means.

Right.

Right.

So I think you said it really well.

Thank you.

Now 1 Peter 4:8 – above all, love each other deeply because love covers over a multitude of sentence.

I love that it covers it.

It doesn’t ignore it.

Yeah.

We do choose grace over the offense.

And sometimes, though, that in that grace, you may be called to walk away from that relationship.

It continues to be unhealthy.

Yes..

I’m also reminded that, you know, in Ecclesiastes, it talks about seasons.

Yes.

You know, and you have to remind yourself that sometimes people come into your life for a season for, there’s a reason.

And sometimes that season comes to an end and there’s a reason for that as well.

Some of my tougher friendships, less peaceful friendships.

A lot of blessings came out of them during a certain season.

Yes.

But when the blessings fade in a way where they’ now it’s just conflict after conflict that you sometimes have to just walk away and let that person go live their , their life in one direction and you go live yours in another.

Yes.

I think there’s a lot of validity to seasons and definitely relationships that carry you through a season that resonates well with my soul.

How is the theater kid in me because you do a show and then you move on – Yeah, so then you move on.

I think I’m just thinking about all the moms listening.

I can think back to over the course of raising my babies. There were different friendships throughout those different ages.

Yeah.

The park where you meet.

Yeah.

You know, the small group when they’re, you know, you’re infants and then we’re toddlers and or the gymnastics group or, you know, there’s different seasons.

And I think throughout life, you know, all my children are now young adults, you know, I have a couple friendships that remain.

And there’s a reason that those remain.

They’re still serving my soul.

That’s cool.

All right.

Anybody want to pray for us?

I’ll pray.

Okay.

Lord, we just come before you, and we’re so grateful for this time together that we can talk about healthy relationships and how to deal with the mess that sometimes comes along, God.

And you give us so much direction on that.

Your word is full of wisdom on how we should deal, when we should not speak, when we should listen.

We just ask you, God, for wisdom in our relationships that you would help us to see, are they healthy for us?

Are we having to work too hard at this? Is it just kind of constant conflict?

Maybe this is someone that you’re moving us away from. Maybe that season has ended, God, or perhaps you have, you want to use us as a tool to share your grace, your good news.

We ask that you soften our hearts. Help us to hear, help us to listen to wise counsel when we have issues that we’re not sure about, how to, how to respond, what to do.

God, I pray that you just remind us.

We come to you first, God.

And then we go seek counsel of people who maybe have been down that road, just mentors that we have or trusted friends.

We ask for you to give us strength when dealing in a conflict, that we will be careful not to react, careful how we respond, to stop and to think first before anything else.

We don’t have to give an immediate word.

We can pause and we can listen for direction from you.

God, we just invite you into some relationships of people out there that maybe they’re in a strained situation right now.

We ask that they would seek you, God, that you would be with them.

You would guide them, direct them, give them someone who can offer a word of advice and be with us as well, just as we are working through our relationships, give us wisdom, and we just ask these things in your name.

Amen.

Amen.

So our reflection of the week is what is one small way you can move toward health in a relationship this week, even in a messy season?

So if you’d like to answer that reflection of the week, you can go to our website.

Thanks for sitting at the table with us.

We’ll leave you there for now.

May God meet you in the small, quiet places this week.

As we close, we pray that you would notice Jesus meeting you in the ordinary moments of your week.

He loves you.

He sees you.

He is fighting for you.

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Until we are together again, may the grace and peace of Jesus go with you. 

Proverbs 21:23 –  Whoever keeps his mouth and his tongue keeps himself out of trouble.

Proverbs 15:2 – The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouths of fools pour out folly.

Ecclesiastes 4:9-10 – Two are better than one, because they have a good return for their labor: If either of them falls down,  one can help the other up. But pity anyone who falls and has no one to help them up.

Romans 12:18 – If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

1 Peter 4:8 – Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.